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Wed, May 9, 2007 at 2:28:18 PM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

#1

KimWong


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Hi ALL,

Interesting to find out what overseas member think about this question.

In Malaysia, I found many firms has problem in getting their staff to use Revit. The boss bought Revit, hoping the projects will fly off and make BIG profit. But they were dissapointed. It was discovered the staff found it too hard to master it. So the software sit on the shelf. Like forever.

Wonder if this same problem encounter in your side of the world? Maybe you want to share how your office gets it to work. Thanks.


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Wed, May 9, 2007 at 2:44:13 PM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

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Here in the USA many firms are experiencing the same problem.  Revit is not an easy program to master and most people are not knowledable enough to use it effectively.  Effective Revit users need to have an understanding of how buildings go together and how to use an advanced software package.  Finding both of those skills in one person is tough.

Here in Minneapolis Minnesota I know of a number of firms that have tried to implement Revit and have failed.  It is very alluring when you see someone such as myself give a Revit demo because I make it look easy.  It really is easy if you understand relational databases, Windows, building technology and can work without a written procedure manual. 


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Thu, May 10, 2007 at 2:47:15 AM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

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A.  You need someone who is fluent in the program to begin with, OR a CAD/BIM Manager willing to make the extra effort to get it to work.  Revit makes it very easy to learn the basic stuff and to document a basic building, however it takes much longer to master it.

It requires someone dedicated to generating a decent library and functional templates files and work flows.  This is why you'll find Revit CAD Managers are really in high demand as without them many firms fail at implementing revit successfully and getting the productivity benefits it has....


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Thu, May 10, 2007 at 3:34:03 AM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

#4

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Hi Tom and Mr Spot,

 

Glad to get you 2 gurus from the US.

How are UK, Australia, S.A, Europe and Asia?

 

Here I know a few Cad Managers has quitted once the firm invested in Revit. You see with Revit once you started a project you must finish it. This is where it drives the poor cad manager crazy as they themselves cannot figure how it works and let alone complete the project.

So under pressure they just quit.

You see in ACAD you can "cheat" with lines. As you know you can't do that with Revit.

Does the CadManager in US face the same problem?

 

I will see what they have to say before I share you guys my experience in Malaysia.

Here we have different problems. Revit was officialy launched in Malaysia back in late 2004 (I think so) So we still have long way to catch up compare to US. 

 

Cheers.


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Thu, May 10, 2007 at 3:38:35 AM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

#5

KimWong


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Typo error above!

 

Hi Tom and Mr Spot,

Glad to heard from you 2 gurus from the US.

 

How do I edit my trhread once I post it? Thanks.


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Thu, May 10, 2007 at 9:32:35 AM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

#6

Safety


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The answer to your question is time! Like Mr. Spot said you need that one person who his willing to make it their responsibility to generate libraries & teach the others. Here in South Africa we are facing the same problems. I have just started working on Revit (the beggining of the year) and is currently teaching people in my office tips & tricks etc.(just beacause i am setting out the time and effort to teach myself) in Revit as they are just not willing to make that extra effort to solve the problems on their own. I have encouraged them time and time again to join the forum as it gives you many answers to most of our problems we are faced with........but they just feel it's to much of an effort or can't be bothered with it! In our office we have setup a Revit meeting once a week to convey the things we learn and we have felt that this is improving our workforce use with Revit. Without this forum and guys like Mr.Spot etc. I don't believe I would have been able to learn so much so quickly........

Thanks and keep those tips coming!

 


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Thu, May 10, 2007 at 3:06:20 PM | KimWong

#7

TomDorner


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Quoting KimWong from 2007-05-09 22:38:35

"

Typo error above!

 

Hi Tom and Mr Spot,

Glad to heard from you 2 gurus from the US.

 

How do I edit my trhread once I post it? Thanks.

"

 

See if you can click on the post number and expose the 'edit' option to edit your post. Since I'm a moderator it is always there on all posts for me, but it should be there for you to edit a posting you made.

My continuing thoughts on this subject is that not only does it take a willing person to implement Revit, but a willing company as well.  How many companies are willing to turn someone loose for a year or so as un-billable?  I've been at implementing Revit for the better part of 4.5 years and still have to do most things like families and templates on the fly during a billable project.  Everything family I create if done during a project is completed just to the level needed for that project.  No time is available other than my personal time to refine and create families.

You also need pure R&D time as the whole BIM picture is evolving.  I need to look at JetStream from NavisWorks, Viz, Bentley, Innovaya and probably a few others as well.  Revit is a great program, but it is not the be all and end all of the larger BIM picture.


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Fri, May 11, 2007 at 3:17:20 AM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

#8

KimWong


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Let face it. Reviter is a rare specie.

If you made it to this forum you are committed to master Revit. Is that right? Congratulations.

 

These are the typical scenarios of implementing Revit in Malaysia.

 

  1. Staff has no motivation to learn Revit. They see Revit as an "tool" to make them more productive and thus making more money for the principals. So why bother to learn new skill and make the principals rich!

          Care to comment on this?

 

     2.  Firm is playing wait and see to pinch really made Reviter to come in and implement Revit for

         "2 for the price of 1".

          Is that typical too in your country?

 

     3. The traditional AutoCad trainedCAD manager is not capable of handling a new software like  

         Revit. The learning curve takes time. The implementation take longer. Eventually the firm

         gives up and the poor CAD Manager walk out!

           What do you think?

 

Note: May 12. Amended the item no after Mr Spot comment below! Sorry!



Edited on: Fri, May 11, 2007 at 11:01:02 PM

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Fri, May 11, 2007 at 5:45:43 AM | KimWong

#9

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Quoting KimWong from 2007-05-10 22:17:20

Let face it. Reviter is a rare specie.

If you made it to this forum you are committed to master Revit. Is that right? Congratulations.

 

These are the typical scenarios of implementing Revit in Malaysia.

 

  1. Staff has no motivation to learn Revit. They see Revit as an "tool" to make them more productive and thus making more money for the principals. So why bother to learn new skill and make the principals rich!

          Care to comment on this?

 

  1. Firm is playing wait and see to pinch really made Reviter to come in and implement Revit for "2 for the price of 1".

          Is that typical too in your country?

 

  1. The traditional AutoCad trainedCAD manager is not capable of handling a new software like Revit. The learning curve takes time. The implementation take longer. Eventually the firm gives up and the poor CAD Manager walk out!

           What do you think?

"

Okay let me begin by saying I'm from Australia not US...

1.  The motivation comes from being able to quickly visualise your work rather than constantly looking at the mudane inverted AutoCAD screen.  You have the ability to model 3D and model how a building is built.  You'll find many more new CAD users who understand how things "go together" really excel in Revit.  Overall its just more enjoyable and that should be reason enough for anyone to want to use Revit.  If you have staff that only see Revit as a way for the company to improve productivity and make more money for the principals then sounds like there is a definitely morale (& attitude) problem in the office to begin with thats not related to Revit.

2. (1.??) Firms who do this have to be prepared to pay a lot more for their staff.  And the staff that are leaving need to be more appreciated whether they are so they don't leave in the first place.  Its not always a question of money, conditions plays a big part.

3. A traditional CAD Manager as you put it should be more than capable of implementing software like Revit.  It all sounds like everyone is very tightly strung and ready to snap over there, so the stress of implementing new software is too much for a lot of people.  Sounds like people are giving up without even trying.  Over here quite often firms will go through quite a few CAD/Revit Managers before they successfully implement Revit purely because a lot of people don't have the commitment or tenacity...

My 2 cents.


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Sat, May 12, 2007 at 4:17:18 AM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

#10

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Hi Mr Spot,

G'day mate. Sorry, I didn't know you are from the Sunshine State. I live in Sydney for 15 years! Love to go to the Goldcoast again.

Hi ALL, I posted the question "What it takes to learn Revit?". You noticed I joined Revit back in Sept 2005. That was 5 months when I came to know about Revit. Since, then I was busy learning Revit by myself and "revitization" all my projects. 

Ahemmm...I only got active in the forum when I posted my first images (Tropical Design)  on May 6, 2007! My advice if you want to learn Revit the fast track? Make it a habit to visit RevitCity EVERYDAY and find out what is happening especially the threads posted in the forum. You will find heap of tips and information you can learn from other members. I wished I should have done that when back in 2005!

Oh...also great to get to know fellow Reviters. You never know 1 day I will pay Mr Spot a vist when I drop by the Goldcoast! You have a nice day. 

 

 


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Sun, May 13, 2007 at 11:07:48 AM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

#11

hutana


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Kia Kora Kim Wong

 Insights from New Zealand

Exactly the same observations here in NZ. Many Revit Copies collecting dust.

Reason for this is good old greed. Autodesk is as greedy as the Architect. Both are trying to make a quick buck. I partly blamb Autodesk for the bottle kneck in BIM at the Architects end. Bundling Acad with Revit is a sugar coat attempt to mask the obsurdity of blending 2D blocks with 3D Componants. The Architect/Director has a Jeckl and Hyde relationship. By day its the comfortable well behaved CAD culture he has had for 25 yrs.

At night however its this 4D Parametric central file monstrosity with worksets, phasing, family creators, fandangled schedules, massing and Walkthoughs!! No wonder they are scared to death of Revit. Not to mention the annual subscriptions, 6month ulsar forming learning curve and oh yes the non resell policy at the end.

Whats the Antedote? Educate the Architect to look before they leap. Who will warn them?.......not Autodesk..... they want the big sell. Small groups such as reputable user groups and such like.

 

Cheers Kim. My first draft for this was a book     


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Sun, May 13, 2007 at 10:59:28 PM | hutana

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Quoting hutana from 2007-05-13 06:07:48

"

Reason for this is good old greed. Autodesk is as greedy as the Architect. Both are trying to make a quick buck. I partly blamb Autodesk for the bottle kneck in BIM at the Architects end. Bundling Acad with Revit is a sugar coat attempt to mask the obsurdity of blending 2D blocks with 3D Componants. The Architect/Director has a Jeckl and Hyde relationship. By day its the comfortable well behaved CAD culture he has had for 25 yrs.

At night however its this 4D Parametric central file monstrosity with worksets, phasing, family creators, fandangled schedules, massing and Walkthoughs!! No wonder they are scared to death of Revit. Not to mention the annual subscriptions, 6month ulsar forming learning curve and oh yes the non resell policy at the end.

Whats the Antedote? Educate the Architect to look before they leap. Who will warn them?.......not Autodesk..... they want the big sell. Small groups such as reputable user groups and such like. 

"

There are some things you can blame Autodesk for and some things you can't and i believe this is one of the can'ts...

Revit is free to trial and fully functional for 30 days.  Which is an excellent opportunity for testing a product before you dive in.  If a company dives straight in without testing to see if a product is right for them then you can't blame AD.

The tools you list as describing a "monstrosity" are all essential tools to managing a BIM and allow users the ability to work in a team and manage designs.  Its frustrating to find that some companies fail to see the advantages of a fully co-ordinated BIM.  Especially in a multi-user environment.  Think about how you have to previously manage changes, a change is made in 2D the drawing set must be manually co-ordinated across the entire set.  Unless you've got 1 single person responsible for the change (in most cases you won't as it may be a significant change) or you have an incredibly disciplined team or who abide by your CAD standards religiously.  You are going to end up with drawings that appear differently, elements that weren't updated on some drawings and overall a change that takes significantly longer.

Yes there is more overhead in a BIM in getting the model developed, but it once its there and has be managed appropriately changes are much easier.  Plus you can almost guarantee that your drawings are going to look consistent throughout the project (if not through all your projects if you have your template setup correctly).

Furthermore, Revit typically has a 3 month learning curve that is far shorter than most other BIM packages I've used of which I've found counter-intuitive.  At least they were when i first started using Revit in 2001.  Remember though, the CAD/BIM Manager does need more than the 3 months to become proficent enough to manage Revit.  I'd say 6-12 months.  But users can be up and running in far less than that.

My 2 cents.


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Mon, May 14, 2007 at 3:48:48 PM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

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Teni Koe Hutana,

Are you based in Auckland or Wellington. I lived in Willington for a year.

I refer to you comment below:

Whats the Antedote? Educate the Architect to look before they leap. Who will warn them?.......not Autodesk..... they want the big sell. Small groups such as reputable user groups and such like.

Last year, I met the Autodesk's rep. in KL, Malaysia, and jokingly mentioned they were "wrong" to sell Revit to Architect. Well, sometime it works. But as I have lightlighted above - it has many problems. People or firm are reluntant to change unless they are force too. They should instead sell Revit to Developer. Why? Let me you a case. Imagine a devloper has a meeting with an Architect and say this, "I heard about Revit and the Freedom Tower, is your office using Revit?". Now that is interesting coz it will force people to change if they want the project. Think about it.

Hi Mr Spot.

Always nice to hear from you, mate. About the 30 day free trial on Revit. Here a firm easily has 5 -10 pcs. After 30 days they can install Revit into another PC and continue trying it. So they don't have FREE 30 days testing but like 6 months. Guess what? They still can't be bother to get it working as the 3 points I highlighted above. Also I forgot to mention they are many ArchiCAD and MicoStation users here that are very reluctant to switch to Revit. Just a thought here to keep the discussioin interesting.


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Mon, May 14, 2007 at 11:07:03 PM | What it takes to learn and implement Revit?

#14

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Hmm.  Don't really know if this is actually a discussion.  Sounds a bit more like whining to me.  I seem to be the only one analysing why firms are having difficulty?

Revit for developers? Huh?  Revit was designed by architects for architects, why one earth would a developer want to use revit its not a software programming language?

Regarding the Freedom Tower and "forcing" people to use revit.  The freedom tower was documented in ADT and Revit from memory by the guys at SOM so don't know if there was any forcing going on.  You'll find these days more informed clients may even request the use of BIM software such as revit purely because they saw benefits in their previous project.  I believe this is only the "forcing" you'll see in the industry.

As for the 30 day trial thing, yeah i've heard of other companies doing that to.  A lot of hassle to go through though especially when they run out of PC's.  And realistically you shouldn't need that long to decide whether the software is going to beneficial.

I'd prefer if every firm didn't start to using Revit.  I have no problems with companies using ADT, Microstation, Vectorworks or ArchiCAD or even AutoCAD for that matter.  They all have their advantages, but for my buck Revit is the most effective for me and have seen many productivity and profit increases in firms i've been involved with.

Besides I'm not a sales person, just a devoted Revit users who enjoys helping out other Revit users.


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Wed, May 16, 2007 at 9:41:29 AM | Mr Spot

#15

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Quoting Mr Spot from 2007-05-14 18:07:03

"

Hmm. Don't really know if this is actually a discussion. Sounds a bit more like whining to me. I seem to be the only one analysing why firms are having difficulty?

Revit for developers? Huh? Revit was designed by architects for architects, why one earth would a developer want to use revit its not a software programming language?"

Edited on: Wed, May 16, 2007 at 4:44:27 AM

Did not mean exactly that Revit is for developers. You see they only think about speed and profit. So when they know that Revit...YES...only Revit can deliver "Speed and Efficiency", that is where it caught the Architect with the pant down. Firms that did not have Revit will lose the job or have to liar that they have it. That is where I come into the picture here as a freelance Architect! What I am trying to say above is you get the developer "to push" Architectural Firm to use and implement Revit if it takes to deliver "Speed and Efficiency".

I believe that Revit is designed for Architect. Wonder how does senior draftsperson or designer look at it?

Mr.Spot, we always value your comment here as an experienced Cad Manager/Architect. Good on you, mate.



Edited on: Wed, May 16, 2007 at 6:30:52 PM

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