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Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 6:30:48 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#1

pbrumberg


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I'd like to insert my roof deck over my sloping steel framing by adding a "slab" that consists of only 1-1/2" roof deck.  I can't seem to figure out a way to associate this slab with the reference plane which defines my roof steel.  Am I missing something?


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Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 6:32:38 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#2

Typhoon


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Some screenshots will help...

 


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Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 6:43:12 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#3

pbrumberg


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I don't mean to sound like a smarta$$, but I'm not sure what to screenshot.  As you probably already know, if you use a reference plane on a slope (defined in an elevation or section), you can assign your that as your "work plane", and any framing you add on that level will by default be attached to that work plane.  If you not assigned a sloping work plane, when you enter a slab (with or without concrete) the framing will appear to be supporting the slab.  With a sloping work plane, if you try to enter the slab command the program gives you an error.  If you enter the slab using a level as a work plane, I cannot seem to find a way to rotate it to align with the reference plane which defines the work plan on the roof level.  If there's something specific you'd like me to screenshot, let me know and I'll see what I can do (ps - do you just attach screenshots as a jpg in the attachments section when making a post).


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Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 6:56:23 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#4

Typhoon


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This is a screenshot (images), you can pick in the "work Plane" button and pick in the face you want for your new work plane...

 



Edited on: Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 1:57:51 PM

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45145_work2.png

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Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 7:05:02 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#5

Typhoon


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That's another...

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Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 2:36:42 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#6

pbrumberg


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I understand the idea of a screenshot - I'm just not sure what I would take a screenshot of to depict the question I'm asking.  I've attached a few - let's see if we can use them to talk about this a little more.

On your screenshot, you show a work plane (the blue mesh).  How did you get that?  Did you manually slope your beams using end offsets or 3d snapping, and then define the work plane using the beam line?  If so - does that allow you to model in your deck on a slope?  If so - can you give a step by step?  Note that I was not able to define a work plane by the beams/joists which I already have modelled (perhaps because they were modeled on a work plane).

In my case, I've defined a work plane by drawing a reference plane at the deck bearing/top of steel elevation in a building elevation and giving it a name (see screenshot #2 - in this case it's called "low slope roof" ) .  Then I can return to a plan view, attach the top of columns to this work plane and model the roof members on this work plane  (  see screenshot #3 ) .  By using the work plane defined by a reference plane, I can change the reference plane later and all the roof members and top of column elevations will change along with it.  See screenshot #1 for a 3d of the roof - the blue mesh shows the sloping work plane which was defined using a reference plane.

The question now becomes - how do I add roof deck.  I see a couple of options.  The first is to not actually model in deck, but rather add the deck as a detail component/repeating detail in individual sections.  The second is to model in the deck as a "slab" of 1-1/2" roof deck so that when you cut a section, you see the profile of the deck (similar to what you might do on a composite floor - see screenshot #4).

The problem is that I cannot figure out how to get the "slab" of 1-1/2" roof deck to align/attach to the work plane which I defined by the named reference plane.  I get the message in screenshot 5 when I try to model a slab with the work plane set to "reference plane: low roof slope".

So what is the solution?  Is there a way to model in roof deck on a roof structure which is sloping and modeled on work plane defined by a reference plane?  If possible I want the deck to be associated either with the framing or the work plane so that if I modify my reference plane, the framing and the deck all move together.

 

Edited on: Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:18:07 AMEdited on: Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:10:42 AMEdited on: Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:15:17 AM

Edited on: Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:15:53 AM

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45185_Workplane5.PNG45185_Workplane1.PNG45185_Workplane2.PNG45185_Workplane3.PNG45185_Workplane4.PNG

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Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 6:40:37 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#7

Typhoon


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Hi, see the video and give me a feedback: http://screencast.com/t/yvMbepAL

 


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Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 7:36:13 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#8

dgcad


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pbrumberg your question is clear and simple.
All you need to do is use the 'Roof Shaping' tools to slope your roof deck. Forget about using a reference plane. Roofs and floors don't associate to sloped reference planes. You just get the error message you already saw.
You can use an in-place family as Typhoon has demonstarted but that is not a good solution at all.
Solution: In plan, 3d or elevation view select the roof, then note the cool new 'roof shaping' tools at the top on the options bar. See attached image. These were added exactly for your purpose. Use the button on the far right to select the supporting beams. The roof or floor will then properly slope based on the elevation of those supports. The beams have to be positioned directly above or below the roof or floor. Raise or lower the beams and watch the roof or floor react.
You can also add internal supports where ever you want and the roof or floor will automatically add in the valleys or ridges. Such as a folded plate roof shape.
It takes all of 3 seconds to do.
You should also try the other 3 roof / floor shaping tools. Add points etc..for roof drains.
I have a complete set of videos on all this stuff.
Daryl Gregoire
REVIT Training Videos x 100's


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Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 8:10:56 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#9

Typhoon


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Hi again "pbrumberg" see this other video: http://screencast.com/t/FSQg2T9HGeW

 


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Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 4:05:56 AM | align slab with reference plane?

#10

TesterSH


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pbrumberg:  If you have a chance to only view one video, I would choose dgcad's as it's far superior in terms of explanation of the new shape tools introduced in Revit 2008.  Daryl's methods are way easier and probably illustrate what the developers of the new tool had in mind.  Just my two cents.


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Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 4:20:30 AM | align slab with reference plane?

#11

dgcad


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.
Thanks TesterSH.
2 valuable cents it is.
.
When Ty Phoon actually understands the question he does come out with some good answers. LOL

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Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 1:21:47 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#12

pbrumberg


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Thanks guys.  I very much appreciate typhoon's responses, though they did not seem to be what I was looking for and seemed to make things a little more difficult than it needs to be.  I am in the process of trying dgcad's method.  By the way - DG - we own your video series and I've watched a number of them - they're very useful.  I guess I should go look for the one that is specific to this question.  I didn't realize there was one which would apply.

You recommend using the "roof" - I'm using revit structure (2009).  Is there a difference between using a "roof" versus a "slab"?  I tried this using a slab, but I'm having a very difficult time making it work.  I have areas where the edge of my roof stops short of the edge member girder, and also locations where the edge of deck will overhang the last member by a few inches.  These both seem to pose a problem (see attached screenshot).  Also - should I need to pick every beam of the roof?  It seems like I get a distorted/warped deck at places.  I wish my file were small enough to post - but I'm well over the 2Mb size limit. 

One other quick question - if I select a beam to attach the slab and decide later that I didn't want to do that - is there a way to remove the constraint?

It's very unfortunate that a slab or roof cannot be modeled directly on a reference or work plane.  That would make the process so simple.

 



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45245_Slab_Snapped_to_edge_member.PNG

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Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 2:15:53 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#13

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Thanks pbrumberg,
.
Ty Phoon seems to have a way of doing that.
.
As far as I know, by design you cannot align a roof or floor (top/bottom) to a reference plane. Just the outside edges.
.
You can align the beams or a beam system to a reference plane.
.
You can align an 'in-place' family like Ty's first video to a reference plane and so in the end this may be your answer. Then you have to add the steel deck etc. in the detaiing view. Not so bad.
You can make it a roof or a slab in your case. They will behave a little differently when other objects interact and the visibility control will be managed as a 'roof' or as a 'slab'.
If you want to dissassociate only one beam after the fact you CANNOT. You have only one choice, use the 'reset shape' button right beside the shape editing buttons and it completely resets the entire roof / slab. Not so good and needs improvement there.
You can use a combination of the 'points' and 'beam supports' shape editing to fine tune the slab edge and fix the problem you show in the image below. I have seen that before myself. You seldom stop the slab right exactly at the beam midpoint. Use the 'points' tool to fine tune the corner elevations after the fact.
If you already have my CADclip videos you should then review lesson 21-25 in the 'REVIT Architecture Update' series. You may find your prefered solution in there where I cover all of this in great detail. You can also do a search for 'roof' on our search page here > http://www.cadclips.com/TableOfContents.aspx see attached image of results.
As for aligning it to a reference plane you are out of luck. Even though it's just a flat slab it's too complicated an object.


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Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 2:20:10 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#14

pbrumberg


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Well - at this point, I almost think it may be best to just use a repeating detail when i cut my section to show the roof deck.  I think there is too much involved in trying to get all the points to align - but I will play with it for a little while longer before i give up completely.

DG - did you happen to see my other thread I had started regarding the skew of girders when modelling on a sloping work plane (associated with a reference plane)?  The girders come in perpendicular to the work plane - any idea how to get them to remain vertical?

 

Edited on: Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 9:24:57 AM

Edited on: Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 9:25:16 AM

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Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 2:52:00 PM | align slab with reference plane?

#15

dgcad


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Thanks pbrumberg,
.
Ty Phoon seems to have a way of doing that.
.
As far as I know, by design you cannot align a roof or floor (top/bottom) to a reference plane. Just the outside edges.
.
You can align the beams or a beam system to a reference plane.
.
You can align an 'in-place' family like Ty's first video to a reference plane and so in the end this may be your answer. Then you have to add the steel deck etc. in the detaiing view. Not so bad.
You can make it a roof or a slab in your case. They will behave a little differently when other objects interact and the visibility control will be managed as a 'roof' or as a 'slab'.
If you want to dissassociate only one beam after the fact you CANNOT. You have only one choice, use the 'reset shape' button right beside the shape editing buttons and it completely resets the entire roof / slab. Not so good and needs improvement there.
You can use a combination of the 'points' and 'beam supports' shape editing to fine tune the slab edge and fix the problem you show in the image below. I have seen that before myself. You seldom stop the slab right exactly at the beam midpoint. Use the 'points' tool to fine tune the corner elevations after the fact.
If you already have my CADclip videos you should then review lesson 21-25 in the 'REVIT Architecture Update' series. You may find your prefered solution in there where I cover all of this in great detail. You can also do a search for 'roof' on our search page here > http://www.cadclips.com/TableOfContents.aspx see attached image of results.
As for aligning it to a reference plane you are out of luck. Even though it's just a flat slab it's too complicated an object.


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45249_roof_shape_editing.PNG

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