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Forums >> Revit Building >> Technical Support >> Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

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Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 1:26:33 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#1

cwsharp


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I have searched as much as I have patience for to see if anyone has asked this so please excuse me if I am repeating a prior topic.

In masonry construction some architects dimension to the actual rough opening, or, at least, to the centerline of the rough opening. To avoid problems with clearances it is also a good idea to show the door frames in larger scale plans, at least, and I prefer to always cut the masonry opening when using Internal (non-wrapping) door frames. So, for a 3' door with a 2" HM frame, the opening is 3'4" (a little more, actually, but it isn't necessary to get that detailed).

Revit presumes that the opening width should be shown in the properties of the door as Width, a system default parameter. The only way that I could find to accomplish what I am trying to do with a Revit Door template is to create additional reference planes for the door panel and create the frames from extrusions locked to the default opening.

Since you can't turn off a System Parameter in the Properties dialog, this creates a confusing set of options for the users... a parameter called Width that shows, actually, the nominal rough opening, and a Type Parameter that I chose to call Door Width.

Does anyone know how to imrpove upon this rather clumsy situation, or is it simply Revit's assumption that we don't need no steeenkeeeng jammmmssssss drawn correctly, scheduled correctly, and queried of the user in a simple fashion?

TIA

C#


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Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 1:58:11 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#2

WWHub


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You can build a family that cuts the opening in the wall according to the door with plust the frame at each end.  We built our own masonry frame doors to do this.  You can also build a parametric frame for this as a type or instance based parameter that will schedule the frame size and you can build into the family an offset for where the frame is from the exterior side of the wall.

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Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 2:33:28 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#3

cwsharp


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So you're saying build a wall based family from a generic wall based template instead of using a door template?

Building from scratch just to get the Parameters to make sense? Dunno...

And thanks... I already have the inset working properly... that way the door doesn't get creased on the brick! <grin> Determining that a reference plane needed to be locked to the exterior face of the wall to do this was another brow knitter...

Figuring out how to get the cut extrusion to work when I decided to use a check box for a vision lite seemed clumsy, too, but this forum helped with that one... I thought that I would have to change the start plane location but I thought surely, there's a better way... but no, and I am thankful that people post these kinds of work arounds just so we don't go on wild goose chases unless we have to.

There is much yet to be done before this gets really user friendly me thinks...

C#


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Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 2:54:56 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#4

WWHub


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No... you use the door template to do this.

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Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 6:54:48 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#5

cwsharp


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OK. By exiting the file and reopeing it I was allowed to use the System Parameters with them linked to the reference planes that I wanted and now everything is working fine... except...

For the door types that I have frames that wrap the wall, the elevation swing symbolic lines stay in place when I change the size of the glazing lite in the door...

But for doors with an internal frame, when I change the glazing lite size, the symbolic swing lines move... and I have tried putting them in different working planes, locking them and not locking them, etc. The only difference between the two situations is that the symbolic lines are "outside" of the wall opening when the frames wrap and inside the wall opening when the frames are internal frames.

The bottom of the glazing lite, for example, is locked to a reference plane that has a dimension with a parameter label called "Vision Lite Bottom". When I flex this dimension, even though I have drawn the elevation swing lines to the center of the opening, they move off center when the Vision Lite Bottom dimension is flexed. This is only in the doors with frame that are inside the wall thickness, mind you. Everything works fine when the doors are wrapped around the wall... Any ideas?

TIA

C#


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Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 11:34:37 AM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#6

WWHub


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It is too hard to follow your written description so without working on the family directly I can't be much help.  Building parametric families is not easy but it sounds like you have already learned a lot and you will get past this.  Here are a couple of pointers that may help:

 

- Be aware that you may not be constraining to what you think you are.

- I like to build my families well outside of their "walls"  and referenced to a setting plane.  This plane has a "label" dimension (instance) that will then place the elements correctly in the wall.  I do this so that I am sure that all of my constraints are to my planes and not the host element.  I can also test the parametrics.

- put in your reference planes first - before you ever add any elements.  It is very hard to constrain something afterwards. 


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Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 11:37:42 AM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#7

cwsharp


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I am doing what you suggested except for the "outside of the wall" technique, which is an interesting one.

Do you think that even if you hide the geometry in a view, you can get locked to the wrong geometry?

Thanks for your help!

C#


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Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:37:33 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#8

WWHub


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Hiding something will keep you from locking to it but if that element was not hidden when you added the new element, there still may be issues.   Even though I think I am pretty good at this, I am still not clear of all the associations REVIT makes and so I get fooled sometimes.  

 

Remember that you can possibles associate with something that may be associated or locked to something that is turned off.  This is why it is so hard to use other people's families.


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Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 1:51:05 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#9

cwsharp


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Here is a file showing the problem. Flex the dimension to the bottom of the lite and you will see that the symbolic lines in the exterior elevation view move. To my knowledge, there is no linked or locked dimension in the family other than the bottom of the lite to the base elevation.

I believe this is a bug...

This is a Revit 2008 architecture file.

C#



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Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 2:18:02 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#10

WWHub


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I believe I fixed your problem.  As I said, REVIT makes some associations that are not always clear.  You have to tab through these until you get the correct ones. 

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Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 2:32:13 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#11

cwsharp


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Well, I see that it is fixed, but I don't find anything by 'tabbing through' whatever I can figure to tab through...

All I notice is that you replaced a reference plane with a reference line...

Would you care to enlighten me?

Thanks and it's appreciated.

C#


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Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 2:37:40 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#12

cwsharp


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Oh... and I did find the 'sketch dimensions' and if I change the witness lines to the base elevation, the problem goes away. Where did these come from?

C#


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Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 2:58:39 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#13

cwsharp


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OK. Now I've got it.

What was confusing me was that I had a door frame that wrapped the wall and this wasn't happening. What I didn't realize is that the symbolic lines had picked the reference plane for the top of the vision lites and I wasn't flexing that dimension.

Also, when I placed one symbolic line I was locking it's endpoints... and then creating the rest of the lines. I didn't understand that the geometry of the symbolic lines is only locking to a reference plane or reference line and not to the model geometry... so not a bug, just an interesting 'desig' choice by Autodesk... er, feature I mean <grin>.

Thanks.

C#


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Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 3:44:37 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#14

WWHub


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Great!  From this exercise, you have lerned a lot more than many.  Congratulations.

 

BTW - Although I didn't completely check out your family, it looks pretty good but I do have one thing I want to poit out.  It appears that you have use a visibility parameter to schedule your vision panel.  At first glance, that would seem to be a good choice.  However, if you run a materials takeoff, you will see that even when you don't have a vision panel, one still shows in your takeoff. Might be better with a seperate family.


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Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 3:53:57 PM | Wrapping Door Frames and Internal Door Frames

#15

cwsharp


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I remember reading something like that. I don't recall, but if I use a nested family does it still show up in a take off, also? Maybe I can fool Revit into using 0 for the glass area for those doors that have no visible lite even though the take off would show a vision lite? (I presume that you mean that both the quanity of lites as well as their area will show up even though they aren't visible...).

 

C#


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